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En réponse à -9 -8 -7 -6 -5 -4 -3 -2
-1Ben oui de Nicolas Bernard

Utilite de debats peu amenes de Etienne Lorenceau le mardi 20 juin 2006 à 19h37

Contrairement a certains, je trouve le debat entre messieurs Francois Delpla et Nicolas Bernard tres interessants bien que j'epouse sans hesitation les theses de Nicolas Bernard.
De fait
May 20, 1941: In his position of Head of the Amt IV E of the Gestapo, walter schellenberg in an official instruction bans the emigration of Jewish people from France and Belgium Jews announcing the soon coming “Final Solution” of the Jewish Problem. The letter explains that, waiting for the Final Solution the emigration of German Jews is ‘to be intensified during the war’, using the exact same wording as the decree by the RSHA on April 24 1940 (Hence both instructions may have been drafted by the same author)
Source NA Washington
Deschner, Guenther. Reinhardt Heydrich A biography. Stein & Day, New York – 1981
Richard Breitman. The Architect of Genocide, Himmler and the Final Solution.
This is neither Goering as sometimes reported () nor Heydrich (as stated by some revisionists) and reading the documents shows that it cannot refer to the Madagascar project which is an emigration project.
Hence Breitman is wrong in claiming that the Jewish questions were outside Schellenberg's working area (he had a special independant SD office in Auschwitz) and he was clearly involved in major decisions concerning the fate of Jewish people amongst others. On December 16 the same year himmler will mark in his agenda “Jewish Question To exterminate as partisans”. Fight against partisans was exactly the role of Amt IV E
One year later in July 1942, just after the death of heydrich, he [WS] is meeting with himmler, glücks and globocnig in Lublin at the time when Himmler is inspecting Auschwitz and the camps of Operation Reinhard.

luther, un ami personnel de schellenberg qui ouvrira aux services du SD les ambassade allemandes (permettant l'affaire Cicero), etait a l'origine des details du projet Madagascar anterieur a la mise en oeuvre de la solution finale

Une autre sequence d'evenements merite d'etre note a l'appui de la verite soutenue par Nicolas Bernard:
October 29, 1941:
German authorities deport 714 Jewish persons from Nuerenberg to labor camps.
Invitations to the Wannsee conference on the Jewish question are sent out in reinhard heydrich’s name. The conference is (originally) scheduled for December 9.
Breitman, Richard. The architect of Genocide. Alfred A. Knopf, New York - 1991
October 30, 1941: Heydrich himself is not in his office in the RSHA to read these first reports [of the Einsatzgruppen]. Once again he had played truant. He disappeared from Berlin –as himmler said at his funeral, without telling anyone- and once again went into battle with his fighter squadron.
Flying far ahead of Rundstaedt’s panzer columns as they struck into the Ukraine, Heydrich’s fighter was hit by Russian flak. The plane was badly damaged but heydrich with great skill, managed to make a belly landing between the front lines. One leg was twisted, but somehow he managed to half-crawl, half-stagger back to the German lines. Next morning he took off again in another plane. Hitler awarded him the Iron cross First class and the decoration for front pilots.
Wighton, Charles. Heydrich, Hitler’s most evil henchman. Chilton Company Philadelphia New York - 1962
Hence he could not have handled his new role in the Protectorate, his fighter pilot role and the preparation of what would become known as the Wannsee conference

November 1941: By this time, more than 15,000 Jews have been deported from throughout Serbia to the concentration camp at Zemun west of Belgrade.
Gilbert, Martin. Atlas of the Holocaust. Scribner Macmillan - 1982.

November 1941: As an experiment, 1200 prisoners at Buchenwald are taken to the "euthanasia" institute at Bernberg, and gassed.
Gilbert, Martin. Atlas of the Holocaust. Scribner Macmillan - 1982.

November 1-15, 1941: The Jews of Bukovina, like those of Bessarabia, are uprooted from their homes in more than 100 communities, then marched away and interned. Within a year, more than 120,000 of them had died.
Gilbert, Martin. Atlas of the Holocaust. Scribner Macmillan - 1982.

November 8, 1941: Copies of Operational Situation report, No 128, of the Einsatzgruppen, dated November 3 1941 are distributed to the WS group and to both Aemter IV and VI. It cover approximately 4 months operations. There the program of murder and extermination is set forth in details. It callously states that approximately 80,000 persons had been liquidated, describes the objections raised by certain commanders of prisoner-of-war camps, how they were overcome, and of the plans for further operations freed from interference by officers of the Wehrmacht.
According to the Nuerenberg court who judged him as guilty for crimes agains humanity: “His [WS] claim for innocence is wholly incredible”
Green Books: Trials of war criminals before the Nuremberg Military Tribunal under Control Council, no 10, vols 12-14 (London H.M.S.O. 1947-1949) Volume XIV: WS judged guilty on count 5.

November 15, 1941: Himmler and Rosenberg hold a four-hour meeting to discuss Jewish policy and several other areas of their disagreement.
Breitman, Richard. The architect of Genocide. Alfred A. Knopf, New York - 1991

November 16, 1941: Felix Kersten (Himmler's chiropractor)notes in his diary: “Since I labor in vain against the atrocious principles to which Himmler is committed… I will undertake as many intervention as possible to rescue Jews, hoping that they will be granted by Himmler.”
So Felix Kersten knew that, at least as from November 16 1941, himmler was committed to atrocious principles toward Jewish people: his later note on the matter shows that his Memoirs were conveniently rewritten from existing or non existing “notiezen”.

November 17, 1941: Alfred Rosenberg is appointed to head a new Reich Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories. His jurisdiction includes the Baltic States and White Russia, where his task will be to exploit the area for Germany's economic benefit and rid of them of "undesirable elements" such as Communists and Jews.
Himmler telephones Heydrich and tells him about the results of his meeting with Rosenberg, the situation in the Government General, and the "elimination of the Jews." Breitman, Richard. The architect of Genocide. Alfred A. Knopf, New York - 1991

November 18, 1941: Rosenberg tells German journalists at a confidential briefing that the "Final Solution" has begun; a "biological extermination of all Jews in Europe." No Jew could remain on the continent to the Ural Mountains; they would either be forced beyond the Urals or exterminated. The press was not to write about the extermination in detail, but the reporters could use stock phrases such as the "definite solution" or the "total solution of the Jewish question."
NARA RG 242, T-77/R 1175/433;
Breitman, Richard. The architect of Genocide. Alfred A. Knopf, New York - 1991

November 24, 1941: Theresienstadt, the largest of the new concentration camps in what had been Czechoslovakia, is established.
Gilbert, Martin. Atlas of the Holocaust. Scribner Macmillan - 1982.

November 25, 1941: Regulations are issued by the German government concerning confiscation of the property of Jews who are deported.
Lucas, James. World War II Through German Eyes. Arms & Armour Press - 1988.

November 29, 1941: As a matter of fact, the proposed date for conference to finalise details of Final Solution is postponed to December 9.

November-December 1941: The RSHA puts gassing-vans at the disposal of the Security Police and the SD Einsatzgruppen.
Klee, Ernst & Dressen, Willi & Riess, Volker (Editors), et al. The Good Old Days: the Holocaust as Seen by Its Perpetrators and Bystanders. William S. Konecky Associates - 1991.

December 1941: SS Major Christian Wirth, former Chief of the Criminal Police in the city of Stuttgart, working on behalf of the gauleiter of Warthegau, who had recently obtained Himmler's permission to kill 100,000 Jews in his jurisdiction, sets up operation in the village of Chelmno (Kulmhof), forty miles northwest of the Lodz ghetto. On the old castle grounds in the village, Wirth installs several vans of the type the Einsatzgruppen had experimented with in Russia. They are rigged to direct carbon-monoxide fumes from the engine's exhaust into a large sealed cabin in the rear. The larger vans accommodate up to 150 people who are gassed on the way to burial grounds.
The apparatus of death. Time-Life Books, 1992.
(Note: Wirth had conducted the first gassing experiments on the incurably insane in 1939 at the "euthanasia" institution at Brandenburg an der Havel in Prussia.)

December 1941: German soldiers returning from the Eastern Front begin telling "horrible stories" about the fate of deported German Jews who had been shot by mobile killing detachments near Riga and at Minsk.
Herman; Lösener;
Lewy, Guenter. The Catholic Church and Nazi Germany. 1964. Da Capo Press - 2000.

December 5, 1941: Weizsäcker reports to the Foreign Ministry that he has informed Papal Nuncio Orsenigo that the Vatican has so far conducted itself "very cleverly" concerning the "rumors" of mass shootings and deportations of the Jews. The Nuncio "pointed out that he had not really touched this topic and that he had no desire to touch it."
Hilberg, Raul. The destruction of the European Jews. Holmes & Meier Publishers, Inc. 1985
Lewy, Guenter. The Catholic Church and Nazi Germany. 1964. Da Capo Press - 2000.
The first Jews are transported to Chelmno (Kulmhof) extermination camp.
Klee, Ernst & Dressen, Willi & Riess, Volker (Editors), et al. The Good Old Days: the Holocaust as Seen by Its Perpetrators and Bystanders. William S. Konecky Associates - 1991.

December 7 1941:
Himmler and Heydrich publish the infamous Nacht und Nebel decree.

December 8, 1941: SS Major Christian Wirth supervises the murder of 700 Jews in his specially designed gassing vans at Chelmno (Kulmhof) for the first time. The first "death camp" is soon established at Chelmno using these mobile gassing vans. The victims' bodies are dumped into open pits some two miles away in a wooded forest. Total victims: 360,000; survivors: 3 (See Wirth, December 1941)

December 9, 1941: The conference concerning the final solution to the Jewish problem, originally scheduled for December 9, is postponed by Heydrich to January 8, 1942 due to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and the necessity for German authorities to analyse its consequences.

Chelmno Death Camp becomes operational: Beginning of Operation Reinhardt (Heydrich’s first name). Situated near the Polish city of Lodz victims were killed by driving them around in vans, the exhaust engine fumes being pumped into the hermetically sealed load compartment. The victims came from the Lodz ghetto, and included 5,000 Roma and Sinti who had been interned there.

December 10, 1941: Himmler orders that commissions, made up of physicians who were formerly concerned with "euthanasia" are to be set up to "comb out" prisoners in concentration camps who are unfit for work, are ill, or are "psychopaths." Tens of thousands of prisoners, picked out in this way by Professor Heyde, Professor Nitsche and other physicians, are killed by gas in the extermination centers at Sonnenstein and Hartheim.
Benno Müller-Hill, Murderous Science: Elimination by Scientific Selection of Jews, Gypsies, and Others, Germany, 1933-1945. Oxford University Press

December 14, 1941: Rosenberg raises the Jewish question with Hitler, who tells him that the Jews had brought this war on Germany, and caused the destruction, and that they had only themselves to blame if they had to suffer the consequences.
Breitman, Richard. The architect of Genocide. Alfred A. Knopf, New York - 1991

December 16, 1941: Coming out from the Fuehrerhauptquartier Wolfsschanze, Himmler writes in his agenda
“Jewish Question To exterminate as partisans”

Hans Frank tells his cabinet in Kracow: "the Jews must be done away with, one way or another... we must annihilate the Jews whereever we find them..."

Cela me semblait significatif dans le contexte du debat...

*** / ***

lue 2987 fois et validée par LDG


1 Le point sur Wannsee de françois delpla 21 juin 2006 10h17
2 La modération assume de Jacques Ghémard 21 juin 2006 10h28
2 Vous ne répondez toujours pas à mes remarques de Nicolas Bernard 21 juin 2006 10h55
2 rastreint valet ! de marc artiges 21 juin 2006 14h10
3 le point sur wansee de Claude Cambier 21 juin 2006 15h45
4 Wansee de Claude Cambier 21 juin 2006 15h45
3 Deux précisions de françois delpla 22 juin 2006 09h26
4 Oui, nous sommes bouche bée de Jacques Ghémard 22 juin 2006 11h33
3 La loi du nombre et noms d'oiseaux de Etienne Lorenceau 22 juin 2006 21h21
4 Trente millions, vraiment? de arcole 23 juin 2006 09h44
5 Mais oui ! de françois delpla 23 juin 2006 10h17
6 orthographe SVP de marc artiges 23 juin 2006 13h41
7 Mônon, c'est de la grammaire ! de françois delpla 23 juin 2006 14h21
8 pirouette,cacahuete, de marc artiges 23 juin 2006 15h21
8 Un chiffre diplomatique plus qu'historique de Etienne Lorenceau 23 juin 2006 15h27
9 Livre d'histoire de 3e de Leon 23 juin 2006 15h57
10 mémorial de la Shoah de arcole 23 juin 2006 16h16
11 Bilan macabre de Francis Deleu 23 juin 2006 18h04
9 surprenant en effet de arcole 23 juin 2006 16h00
8 pirouette,cacahuette, de marc artiges 23 juin 2006 15h39
3 Bien le boujour. de Jacky Panneels 22 juin 2006 21h24
4*** contribution effacée
5 Déserteur ??? de Igor Geiller 23 juin 2006 17h01

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